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Post by cj on Jul 3, 2017 21:09:14 GMT -5
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Post by howard63 on Jul 4, 2017 9:00:21 GMT -5
It sounds more like a personal feud between Hernandez and Joe Torre than anything else. I have seen posts on other sites questioning whether a former manager should be overseeing umpires, although it really doesn't bother me that much.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2017 10:11:36 GMT -5
Can fans sue him for being a bad umpire?
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Post by tj888 on Jul 4, 2017 11:12:42 GMT -5
I completely support Angel Hernandez in his lawsuit as it makes no sense that Larry Vanover and Jerry Meals were named crew chiefs before him. BOTH failed to make a World Series before they were promoted to crew chiefs (they only got their World Series after becoming crew chief or acting CC for Meals in 2014).
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Post by tj888 on Jul 4, 2017 11:13:51 GMT -5
It sounds more like a personal feud between Hernandez and Joe Torre than anything else. I have seen posts on other sites questioning whether a former manager should be overseeing umpires, although it really doesn't bother me that much. The NFL and the NHL all have former officials as the top man in charge of officials. MLB needs to do the same thing. |
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Post by tj888 on Jul 4, 2017 11:16:39 GMT -5
Can fans sue him for being a bad umpire? If you follow baseball and umpiring closely, he is absolutely not a bad umpire. Yes, he has had some misses (home run non call in Cleveland), but his stats on replay have been fantastic and has a good strike zone (consistent). If you watch the games where he umps, he shows tremendous hustle even at age 56 around the bases. He is a very good umpire who has been passed over for crew chief by others who were not as qualified as he was (Larry Vanover/Jerry Meals). |
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Post by I've been warned on Jul 5, 2017 8:10:57 GMT -5
It sounds more like a personal feud between Hernandez and Joe Torre than anything else. I have seen posts on other sites questioning whether a former manager should be overseeing umpires, although it really doesn't bother me that much. Current and/or former coaches (or managers, in this instance) should NEVER be in a position to evaluate officials at ANY level in ANY sport. They do not understand rules and mechanics to the degree necessary to make their opinions valid. I have no problem if they're asked to rate my ability to show up on time, look professional, act professionally, gauge my ability to interact with their athletes, etc. NO WAY do they get to tell me I don't understand (or mis-applied) a rule or to comment on mechanics. |
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Post by cj on Jul 5, 2017 11:29:23 GMT -5
It sounds more like a personal feud between Hernandez and Joe Torre than anything else. I have seen posts on other sites questioning whether a former manager should be overseeing umpires, although it really doesn't bother me that much. Current and/or former coaches (or managers, in this instance) should NEVER be in a position to evaluate officials at ANY level in ANY sport. They do not understand rules and mechanics to the degree necessary to make their opinions valid. I have no problem if they're asked to rate my ability to show up on time, look professional, act professionally, gauge my ability to interact with their athletes, etc. NO WAY do they get to tell me I don't understand (or mis-applied) a rule or to comment on mechanics. A little bit of a generalization and while I agree with you on a broad basis, nobody can really question Joe Torre's knowledge of the game and of the rules and I am sure he has former umpires in the office assisting and advising him in the same way the NFL officiating was for years run by a man who never officiated a football game in his life on any level yet had a #2 man to assist him although I do understand it caused some rifts with the officials, especially his tendency to go public with some criticisms. Hernandez came into mlb as a hot head and not a very good umpire. I will say he has improved greatly and is really a good balls and strikes umpire, I will give him that. Whether his temperament is right to be a crew chief is certainly something one can question although I suppose one could say if Joe West could be a crew chief, then certainly he could be. |
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Post by sullim4 on Jul 6, 2017 13:10:36 GMT -5
It sounds more like a personal feud between Hernandez and Joe Torre than anything else. I have seen posts on other sites questioning whether a former manager should be overseeing umpires, although it really doesn't bother me that much. Current and/or former coaches (or managers, in this instance) should NEVER be in a position to evaluate officials at ANY level in ANY sport. They do not understand rules and mechanics to the degree necessary to make their opinions valid. I have no problem if they're asked to rate my ability to show up on time, look professional, act professionally, gauge my ability to interact with their athletes, etc. NO WAY do they get to tell me I don't understand (or mis-applied) a rule or to comment on mechanics. Hernandez may hustle around the bases but he also has one of the shortest fuses of any active MLB umpire. Players and managers hate the guy because he's argumentative and shows little respect towards each team. His personality is the polar opposite of Jim Joyce... |
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Post by russ on Jul 7, 2017 9:55:07 GMT -5
Current and/or former coaches (or managers, in this instance) should NEVER be in a position to evaluate officials at ANY level in ANY sport. They do not understand rules and mechanics to the degree necessary to make their opinions valid. I have no problem if they're asked to rate my ability to show up on time, look professional, act professionally, gauge my ability to interact with their athletes, etc. NO WAY do they get to tell me I don't understand (or mis-applied) a rule or to comment on mechanics. Hernandez may hustle around the bases but he also has one of the shortest fuses of any active MLB umpire. Players and managers hate the guy because he's argumentative and shows little respect towards each team. His personality is the polar opposite of Jim Joyce... That may have been true in the late 90's/early 2000's but if you have been watching MLB the last 7-8 years or so Hernandez really hasn't had the short fuse you are talking about. He only has 12 ejections in the last 6 years which is well below the league average and he has really been good about letting personnel have their say and trying to avoid ejections. It is a shame he has such a bad reputation and it gets in the way of what he is actually doing on the field. He is a terrific balls/strikes Umpire and a much improved situation handler. |
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Post by mike on Jul 7, 2017 19:03:03 GMT -5
Hernandez may hustle around the bases but he also has one of the shortest fuses of any active MLB umpire. Players and managers hate the guy because he's argumentative and shows little respect towards each team. His personality is the polar opposite of Jim Joyce... That may have been true in the late 90's/early 2000's but if you have been watching MLB the last 7-8 years or so Hernandez really hasn't had the short fuse you are talking about. He only has 12 ejections in the last 6 years which is well below the league average and he has really been good about letting personnel have their say and trying to avoid ejections. It is a shame he has such a bad reputation and it gets in the way of what he is actually doing on the field. He is a terrific balls/strikes Umpire and a much improved situation handler. I concur about the strides Hernandez has made in the last half dozen years. Not to mention Larry Vanover, Jerry Meals, and Sam Holbrook are just as weak (if not moreso) than Hernandez when it comes to situation handling, all three have less seniority than Hernandez, all three have nowhere near the time Hernandez has a U2 (Hernandez has been one I believe since 2002 or so - Meals and Holbrook had maybe a year or two before being made crew chiefs), and all three were promoted over Hernandez. Fieldin Culbreth looked good before being promoted, yet has regressed in all aspects including a number of high profile rules gaffes. There is precedent for a Crew Chief to give up the duties and still be an umpire (see Dave Phillips). I think MLB might be wise to consider approaching Culbreth with an offer to pay him like a Crew Chief but accept asssignment as a U2. Perhaps you can agree to pair him with someone like Brian Gorman or Jerry Layne, who both have histories of missing time with injuries. |
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Post by FredFan7 on Jul 7, 2017 20:54:17 GMT -5
Phillips had to miss time due to injuries so I think he moved on from crew chief when he was injured.
I've heard somewhere that a NL umpire was moved off of being a crew chief and the U2 was promoted to crew chief. The new crew chief kept the rotation the same so it "looked" like the demoted crew chief was still the chief.
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Post by FredFan7 on Jul 7, 2017 20:59:41 GMT -5
Now, on to Angel. He was a hot head during the first 10-years of his career. I'm surprised that MLB didn't accept his resignation in 1999.
I think since 2010ish, he has really mellowed. While he and West may resent it, I think moving him to a different crew helped him handle situations. I REALLY think having him on Ted Barrett's crew really helped him.
This is not a hot head:
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Post by FredFan7 on Jul 7, 2017 21:00:59 GMT -5
And, I fully disagree with non-officials overseeing officials.
For every Joe Torre there are about 20 Sandy Aldersons.
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Post by russ on Jul 8, 2017 1:54:26 GMT -5
That may have been true in the late 90's/early 2000's but if you have been watching MLB the last 7-8 years or so Hernandez really hasn't had the short fuse you are talking about. He only has 12 ejections in the last 6 years which is well below the league average and he has really been good about letting personnel have their say and trying to avoid ejections. It is a shame he has such a bad reputation and it gets in the way of what he is actually doing on the field. He is a terrific balls/strikes Umpire and a much improved situation handler. I concur about the strides Hernandez has made in the last half dozen years. Not to mention Larry Vanover, Jerry Meals, and Sam Holbrook are just as weak (if not moreso) than Hernandez when it comes to situation handling, all three have less seniority than Hernandez, all three have nowhere near the time Hernandez has a U2 (Hernandez has been one I believe since 2002 or so - Meals and Holbrook had maybe a year or two before being made crew chiefs), and all three were promoted over Hernandez. Fieldin Culbreth looked good before being promoted, yet has regressed in all aspects including a number of high profile rules gaffes. There is precedent for a Crew Chief to give up the duties and still be an umpire (see Dave Phillips). I think MLB might be wise to consider approaching Culbreth with an offer to pay him like a Crew Chief but accept asssignment as a U2. Perhaps you can agree to pair him with someone like Brian Gorman or Jerry Layne, who both have histories of missing time with injuries. Actually Meals was a 2 from 2008-2013 and Holbrook from 2010-2014, 2016 so they each had a decent amount of time as a 2. If you want to look at umpires only having a little time as a 2 before becoming a CC Nelson and Miller were only a 2 from 2011-2013, and Emmel was only a 2 from 2014-2016. Interesting fact, the 2008 crew of Darling, Meals, Emmel, and Miller has seen all 4 Umpires become full time CC's, Darling obviously already was a CC. |
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