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Post by agpennypacker on Mar 6, 2021 1:00:30 GMT -5
I’d love to hear opinions on the best NFL referees of the last 30 years who never drew a Super Bowl assignment as a white hat. Of all those who didn’t make it on the field as a crew chief, who was the most deserving? Johnny Grier? Gordon McCarter? Pete Morelli? Larry Nemmers? Ron Winter? I may lean toward Walt Coleman. Eager to hear what the trained observers here think.
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Post by mike on Mar 6, 2021 6:21:35 GMT -5
I would say Johnny Grier. McCarter predates my following of officials so I can’t comment about him. Morelli had a nice career, but I think he tried to hold on too long and had some really lousy crews late in his career. Nemmers wasn’t Tom White or Jeff Triplette level, but always seemed to have controversies in his games. Ron Winter may have been a nice guy, but in his biggest games seemed to have his worst performances. I think after Bill Leavy’s Super Bowl that that got more consideration among intangibles at least when the NFL was not trying to fix things so specific officials worked Super Bowl. Walt Coleman, despite the grief he got, was a consistent Tier 2 official at a time with a lot of strong Tier 1’s.
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Post by wjl on Mar 6, 2021 7:22:12 GMT -5
Gordon McCarter or Walt Coleman
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Post by FredFan7 on Mar 6, 2021 13:42:58 GMT -5
Chuck Heberling and Walt Coleman. At least Grier and Morelli worked a Super Bowl at another position. Nemmers too. Heberling and Coleman never got the big game, although they were alternates a few times. If you don't remember Heberling, here he is doing the coin toss for OT in The Drive. This was his retirement game. Quite a way to go out! streamable.com/b2r12
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Post by lefty17 on Mar 6, 2021 22:45:05 GMT -5
Chuck Heberling and Walt Coleman. At least Grier and Morelli worked a Super Bowl at another position. Nemmers too. Heberling and Coleman never got the big game, although they were alternates a few times. If you don't remember Heberling, here he is doing the coin toss for OT in The Drive. This was his retirement game. Quite a way to go out! streamable.com/b2r12If you want to be a real stickler, Heberling did do a Super Bowl-as the replay official.
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Post by teo on Mar 6, 2021 23:03:04 GMT -5
What about Bob Frederic and Fred Wyant? Seriously, it was a a travesty that these referees plus Gordon McCarter didn’t had even a Championship game.
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Post by mike on Mar 7, 2021 6:17:47 GMT -5
If you want to look at more than R, then it is a travesty that Mark Baltz never worked a Super Bowl. At least at R position, a number of those mentioned were blocked by guys like Tunney, Haggerty, Markbreit, Cashion, McElwee.
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Post by tj888 on Mar 7, 2021 15:37:25 GMT -5
For me it could be Pete Morelli. He was great during his prime but faded down the stretch.
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marvin
Small College
Posts: 40
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Post by marvin on Mar 7, 2021 21:08:40 GMT -5
I'd have to go with Coleman. 30 years, 3 alternates as Super Bowl Ref. People forget for a period of time 1998-2005, he really was at or near the top. In 2004, Hochuli got the SB, but Coleman got the 2nd playoff game and AFC Championship, which meant he had to be # 2.
I always thought he deserved a SB game. He kind of had it yanked away from him the year Boger got the SB, because I think that was the last year Coleman was close to that top tier.
Hberling and Fredic are also two honourable mentions.
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Post by FredFan7 on Mar 7, 2021 23:57:51 GMT -5
What about Bob Frederic and Fred Wyant? Seriously, it was a a travesty that these referees plus Gordon McCarter didn’t had even a Championship game. I was never impressed with Frederic. In his 20ish year career, he worked a total of three playoffs games on the field - and one year was the strike shortened "Super Bowl Tournament" where every crew (except rookies) worked the first round playoff game. I always felt that he had a tenuous hold on a game and strong officials like Lou Palazzi, Jerry Bergman, Don Hakes and Art Holst were there propping him up. Yet he was the alternate for Super Bowl X and the alternate for three conference championships, so who knows. If you ever get the chance, read "Offsides!" by Fred Wyant. He could have used a better editor, but he gave a good insight into how he and Art McNally clashed in philosophy on how officials should approach calling a game. I can see where McNally may not have trusted Wyant to keep control of the big game. But, any doubt should have been erased as Wyant and crew called the amazing Epic in Miami between the Dolphins and Chargers. If Wyant excelled there, then he should have been able to handle the Super Bowl. The late Jerry Bergman said Wyant was one of the best, so that's pretty high praise. Wyant came into the NFL in 1966 as a LJ. He became a referee in 1970 or 1971. He was an alternate or Pro Bowl official five times in the 1970s. He didn't get assigned to his first playoff on the field until 1981, the aforementioned divisional playoff game between the Chargers and Dolphins (still one of the best games I've ever seen). He worked a total of five playoff games on the field (including one in 1990 after he was moved back to LJ by McNally). Seeman ran him off after 1992. McCarter worked 27 or 28 seasons. He worked a total of 12 playoff games on the field - including three divisional playoffs as a deep wing. He was assigned a conference championship alternate six times and was a Super Bowl X alternate with Bob Frederic. IMO, McCarter and Wyant were good enough be assigned to at least one conference championship game in their careers. I think Tunney, Haggerty or Seeman could have worked one less Super Bowl and had McCarter or Wyant call it just as well. Frederic? I think his assignments (or lack of them) were justified.
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Post by FredFan7 on Mar 8, 2021 1:08:07 GMT -5
For non-referees, I have three nominations - Pat Harder, Mark Baltz and Don Carlsen.
In 17 seasons, Harder worked a total of 10 playoff games, including four conference championships. He also was the alternate for three Super Bowls and three other conference championships - so he was more than capable of working the Super Bowl. During his career, Joe Connell worked three Super Bowls, Al Conway three, Lou Palazzi three and Ralph Morcroft two. Don't you think McNally could have slipped Pat in there for one of those other multiples?
Don Carlsen worked 24-years and was assigned to 16 playoffs, including three conference championships. The side judge was the alternate for Super Bowl XLVI - his second to last season. He was capable. In those 24-years several side judges worked the Super Bowl, including three each from Laird Hayes and Tom Fincken. He could have made it.
Mike Pereira deserves credit for many positive things he brought to NFL officiating. He was the Art McNally of the 21st century. But, his record has a pretty sad blot on it because he didn't assign Mark Baltz to at least one Super Bowl, when Baltz was #1 at his position three times. In his 26 seasons, Baltz worked 18 playoff games including five conference championships. The man was more than capable of working the Super Bowl. But, Periera didn't assign him. We don't know for sure why, but it was a time when Pereira was emphasizing personal fitness and Baltz's stomach protruded in advance of his chest. No matter what, Baltz deserved a Super Bowl and never got it.
In McNally's era, grades counted for 90-percent and McNally's subjective judgement counted for 10-percent. The grades were so close, McNally's judgement tipped the scale. McNally had officials he trusted for the big games and they got multiple assignments. I must say, those officials were good and worthy of the Super Bowl. But, there were other good officials who could have nibbled into some of those multiple assignments.
Pereira tried to change things up on playoff assignments, going from the crew concept to a tier concept. During his, Carl Johnson's, and Dean Blandino's eras the Super Bowl assignments were spread around more than in the past.
All of those officials I mentioned have nothing to be ashamed of for not getting a Super Bowl. It's just too bad their dart didn't find the bullseye.
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Post by zebrablog on Mar 8, 2021 11:13:02 GMT -5
Baltz was certainly graded on the hole number he used on his belt. 100%. Graded in the top tier and was denied the big game.
Pereira also introduced the whole-crew assignment to the playoffs, which weighed down good officials on lesser crews and buoyed weaker officials on strong crews. Took 10 years to get rid of that provision, and people are still saying we should go back to it.
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Post by teo on Mar 8, 2021 15:16:41 GMT -5
Another referee who didn´t work a Super Bowl was Tom Dooley (although he did worked one as a line judge in just his third season). Dooley, Tom White and Jerome Boger are my 3 least favorite referees I saw (in no specific order).
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Post by teo on Mar 8, 2021 15:26:33 GMT -5
Line judge Jack Johnson, who officiu}ated from 1976 through 1990, also worked 5 Conference Championship games, but no Super Bowl.
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Post by mike on Mar 8, 2021 15:30:52 GMT -5
Baltz was certainly graded on the hole number he used on his belt. 100%. Graded in the top tier and was denied the big game. Pereira also introduced the whole-crew assignment to the playoffs, which weighed down good officials on lesser crews and buoyed weaker officials on strong crews. Took 10 years to get rid of that provision, and people are still saying we should go back to it. There are pros and cons to both assignment systems, but I think the crew system could have worked with some tweaks. For example, I think it was something like Top 12 or 14 at the position and Tier 2 or higher was enough to not get replaced. I would have limited it to Top 10 and any ties. Top 10 assures that you won't be getting any official who isn't strong enough to qualify individually. I also think WC and Divisional assignments should be done with the intent of keeping crews together as much as possible. I would then assign the 8 crews with the most number of qualified officials to work the WC and Divisional Rounds. Remaining positions would be filled based on ranking from the remaining officials with the goal of trying to keep those who worked together in the regular season together in the playoffs. Let's say Boger's crew was one of the top 8 in terms of number of qualified officials and had 5 people meet the criteria with only R and DJ not making the grade, but on Blakeman's crew only the R and HL made the grade I would assign Blakeman and his DJ with the remainder of Boger's crew. CC and Super Bowl will still be Tier 1 officials.
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