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Post by FredFan7 on Sept 11, 2012 21:31:58 GMT -5
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Post by zebrablog on Sept 11, 2012 22:03:37 GMT -5
I'll grant the replacement officials a reprieve on that one because there are mitigating circumstances, as I understand it.
The act of downing a punt used to be considered a spot foul as "illegal touching." It is no longer considered a "flagged" foul, but it still retains a lot of the properties of a penalty, although it does not factor as an offsetting penalty in case of a receiving-team foul.
Because it is still a pseudo-penalty, as far as having an untimed down, it is listed as one of the criteria, just as is done for the uncommon fair-catch kick. In the 1980s, when a team did not elect to have an untimed down for a fair-catch kick, referee Jerry Seeman said it is the player's responsibility to make the request. More recently (1999?), Chan Gailey could have requested an extension, but did not realize he was entitled to. The officials did not remind him of this option.
While the Raiders could have extended the game by one wild play, they apparently would have to have requested it. And, if the referees are supposed to give the option, it was obscure enough to elude the game supervisor, who did not contact the field to rectify the oversight.
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Post by cj on Sept 11, 2012 22:11:24 GMT -5
I'll grant the replacement officials a reprieve on that one because there are mitigating circumstances, as I understand it. The act of downing a punt used to be considered a spot foul as "illegal touching." It is no longer considered a "flagged" foul, but it still retains a lot of the properties of a penalty, although it does not factor as an offsetting penalty in case of a receiving-team foul. Because it is still a pseudo-penalty, as far as having an untimed down, it is listed as one of the criteria, just as is done for the uncommon fair-catch kick. In the 1980s, when a team did not elect to have an untimed down for a fair-catch kick, referee Jerry Seeman said it is the player's responsibility to make the request. More recently (1999?), Chan Gailey could have requested an extension, but did not realize he was entitled to. The officials did not remind him of this option. While the Raiders could have extended the game by one wild play, they apparently would have to have requested it. And, if the referees are supposed to give the option, it was obscure enough to elude the game supervisor, who did not contact the field to rectify the oversight. I was going to bring up a game I saw a long time ago between the Jets and the Pats which ended with the Pats making a fair catch and time running out and not requesting a free kick after a fair catch which they were entitled to. I forget all the circumstances with that play (where was it caught, what was the score) but the point was made the next day the Pats could have requested a free kick after the fair catch but they were not, as I remember it, in much of a position to change the outcome of the game except perhaps with circumstances prolonging a play and a penalty committed similar to say the holy roller game. Bt I am sure it was Pats-Jets probably in the 70's. But even if you want to blame the officials, I agree with zebra. The Raiders would be just as responsible for not knowing the rule either and not requesting the untimed down. And as I've said ad nauseum where was the league supervisor and replay official whose job it is to assist the pseudo officials with these tricky interpretations? But understand the league is committed to using all these gaffes as training issues and hopefully as each one is covered in training tapes, it won't happen again. Incidentally, one has to suspect there won't be an Officials Review on NFL Network this season. Pretty safe assumption, eh?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 22:55:00 GMT -5
What a shocker CJ...You now blame the team for not knowing the rule! Bad enough you expect replay officials to go beyond their justicion, the supervisors on the sideline, the clock operators,control center in NY all to make sure the scabs get it right? Why not ask the ground crew, or better yet poll the fans & get thier opinion, maybe use a lifeline to phone a friend! Or how about simply getting the real refs who can handle it all?!
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Post by cj on Sept 12, 2012 0:51:57 GMT -5
What a shocker CJ...You now blame the team for not knowing the rule! Bad enough you expect replay officials to go beyond their justicion, the supervisors on the sideline, the clock operators,control center in NY all to make sure the scabs get it right? Why not ask the ground crew, or better yet poll the fans & get thier opinion, maybe use a lifeline to phone a friend! Or how about simply getting the real refs who can handle it all?! Buzzy....it was the league that said the replay officials and the league supervisors would be there to work with the officials on these very fine points. And yes, the teams are responsible too for knowing the rules. I pointed out a situation that occurred with the regular officials in the 1970's with a Jets-Pats game. YES THEY BLEW IT. I will absolutely agree they did. But what is your objection to using the replay officials to assist in these cases? It's inside the last two minutes of the half so there are no challenges. Indeed the replay official, technically, does have jurisdiction in this situation (in exactly the same way the replay official a long time ago in a galaxy far away had jurisdiction on the "tuck" rule. The replay official buzzed down to Coleman that memorable day in Foxboro and as Coleman went under the hood told him to remember the tuck rule (well remember the Maine might have been just as interesting). Simply, sir, you continue not to get it. But let me repeat. If it were entirely up to me, I would find some compromise to get the regular officials back. I'm totally ambivalent on the issues of the lock out and as they say around where I live, it ain't my business (or yours either). But the league has drawn a line in the sand regarding the pension issue, evidently. And I will be critical of the league for not taking stronger action, as I have said, regarding having both the league supervisor and the replay official, who are the regular guys, take more direction action. I'll give you another example of the regular officials bllowing one big time. In a game in the first year of replay (before the challenge system was put into effect), on the Opening kickoff of a game between Dallas and the Giants, a Dallas player muffed the kickoff into the end zone where a Dallas player took a knee. The referee, who I believe was Pat Haggerty, incorrectly ruled it a safety (ultimately the Giants won the game by 2 points). This was the no comment era but during the game, the league in the person of one Mr Art McNally, the original let's never admit a mistake, issued a statement that the call had been incorrect and blamed......the replay official who promptly quit. The point is these missed calls do happen even with the best of them. But teams too are reponsible for knowing the rules. If I were the staff of Arizona on Suinday, I know the rule is both about a charged time out on an injury inside two minutes and the fact the rule book specifically says the referee muyst inform a coach when his team has used its final time out and would have said something to the officials. (I was watching the games on the rzc which I have for the first time but it was switching back and forth with the Green Bay game and the announcer, Sam Rosen, never made it a point which I would have. Does this totally exonerate the officials. No. I would agree with that. I was ot up at 1 AM in the morning on the punt on the final play of the game. Jim Tunney was supposedly there as the guest rules expert. Did he say something on the broadcast? Did you clearly see the official put both hands on each shoulder to indicate the "violation" of first touching? It's not your money, Buz. You have no say in the adjudication of this dispute. As it stands today, in my opinin, the referees are just as much at fault. A good general knows when to retreat; when the battle has been lost or won and acts appropriately to live to fight another day. Obviously the officials' strategy is to wait for the big error that blows apart a team's season to be able to say, see we're the biggest part of the game. The league is saying no you're not. (it has been a common trend over the years to try to tone down the officials in all sports. When I first started watching baseball in the 1960's, reporters would routinely go to the umpire's dressing room and get the umpire's view of a controversial call. Same was true in all sports except the NFL which had the pool reporter stuff even then under old stone face McNally. But I cannot imagine Tom Gorman or Augie Donaatelli or Al Barlick not telling reporters what the call was after a tight call in a close game I'm not your advesary in this but I'm not willing to concede that ultimately the league is running the show and I don't think, personally, the league's position is untenable. Ultimately I'll wager you a nickel that the officials will come crawling back and have to accept the NFL's proposal on pensions and everything else is probably negotiable. If I'm wrong. I'll send you a nickel through pay pal!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2012 6:53:57 GMT -5
Save your nickel CJ!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2012 8:53:03 GMT -5
I dont think you can blame any official for that one. How many of you at home knew that rule? I didn't and it's one of those obscure rules. I thought the only rule was the fair catch free kick rule, which would not have mattered since it would have resulted in a 105 yard field goal attempt.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2012 9:51:06 GMT -5
I agree harry, an obscure rule to say the least. I am quite sure that very few of us knew that rule and apparently at least 7 scabs in Oak didn't know it either. Also, coaches, replay officials, league observers, or any other member of the NFL's "safety net" apparently didn't know it either...and that's understandable since it's not their job to know the rules. All that said, there's 120 locked out professionals who most definitely know the rule. It's clear to me that until they return we can most certainly expect to be subject to more of the same from those who obviously don't know the rules...doesn't seem fair that coaches, players, and fans be subjected to this ridiculously low standard of excellence.
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jljf
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Post by jljf on Sept 12, 2012 15:31:54 GMT -5
Moral of this game: It doesn't matter that a team lost an opportunity to tie this game just so officials who don't know the rules can learn them.
How many rules are there in the NFL? What other rules don't these ignorant replacements know? How many other opportunities will teams be denied? Is this really the NFL?
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Post by ref1 on Sept 12, 2012 16:39:37 GMT -5
I dont think you can blame any official for that one. How many of you at home knew that rule? I didn't and it's one of those obscure rules. I thought the only rule was the fair catch free kick rule, which would not have mattered since it would have resulted in a 105 yard field goal attempt. But the 7 guys on the field should know the rule. If you put on the stripes you are supposed to know ALL the rules especially the obscure ones. No team ever won a game on a last play Hail Mary?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2012 16:54:21 GMT -5
I dont think you can blame any official for that one. How many of you at home knew that rule? I didn't and it's one of those obscure rules. I thought the only rule was the fair catch free kick rule, which would not have mattered since it would have resulted in a 105 yard field goal attempt. But the 7 guys on the field should know the rule. If you put on the stripes you are supposed to know ALL the rules especially the obscure ones. No team ever won a game on a last play Hail Mary? Not a 95 yard hail mary. and the raiders are not the type of team who can pull off a cal/stanford play. Seriously how many people knew the obsure rule?
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Post by FredFan7 on Sept 12, 2012 17:14:42 GMT -5
I did because of an NFL films special on the rules of the game. Until then I didn't. 95-yard Hail Mary is doubtful, but if you get a defensive foul on the Hail Mary at the 50, then you get another untimed down to try another Hail Mary.
Again, very doubtful that this scenario would have played out, but it is up to the officials to know the rule. Most of the rules are pretty commonly well known, but the officials need to be there to sort out the 10% of the rules that are obscure.
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Post by zebrablog on Sept 12, 2012 17:20:48 GMT -5
I'll admit I did not realize it. I was also heading straight for bed, but I don't think it would've mattered. When I saw Mike Pereira tweet that a few minutes after I shut everything down, it then occurred to be that it was the flag-less, non-yardage foul, and thus subject to an untimed down.
When a punt is downed, the team has an option of taking the ball at the spot of first touching or at the dead-ball spot. Usually, in cases of downed punts, it is the same place, and no option. When there is an option, expedient officiating would have them spot the ball at the most advantageous spot, while confirming with coach/captain.
But, I am fairly certain that untimed downs are not the responsibility of the referee to pose as an option. (Maybe it should.)
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Post by refusa on Sept 13, 2012 15:15:13 GMT -5
If the penalty, or in this case, violation carries an untimed down, there is no option to be given. You mark the ball ready-for-play for an untimed down. The absence of the untimed down clearly demonstrates the officials did not know this rule, which I agree is obscure -- and one that is not included in the NCAA rules for extending periods.
But that's the point. At least somebody on a crew of 7 NFL officials would have got this and awarded an untimed down. Therefore the game was incorrectly administered. Correct administration is something we as officials take great pride in, no matter the level (which is also something we've all screwed up a time or two). Whenever we have a post-game discussion about something we may have incorrectly administered, it is taboo for an official to say, "yeah, but it wouldn't have affected the outcome of the game" ... we don't care about the outcome!!! It's our job to administer the game correctly, by rule.
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Post by FredFan7 on Sept 13, 2012 15:34:33 GMT -5
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