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Post by bfurze on Sept 21, 2012 22:36:09 GMT -5
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Post by FredFan7 on Sept 22, 2012 0:27:48 GMT -5
I don't have much, if anything, to quibble with him about.
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Post by mike on Sept 22, 2012 5:44:22 GMT -5
Actually Jerry Markbreit tells it like he is the PR mouthpiece of the NFLRA. The blame lies just as much on the officials in terms of "who does not care." If something is to get done it will take action from all sides
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Post by cj on Sept 22, 2012 6:42:20 GMT -5
Jerry has been making the rounds of many different radio shows. He was on with Mike Lupica on ESPN 98.7 NY during the past week. Yes Jerry. The scabs have made some bad calls.
But I will simply state it and not belabor the point. None of their bad calls have been, at least up till now, anywhere near as bad as the bad call a certain Jerry Markbreit made in 1977 or thereabout on a play called the Holy Roller play when astonishly he failed to note the Oakland qb had flung the ball forward as he was being sacked which according to the rules of the game as they stood then (and still stand today) was a deliberate forward fumble (as the Oakland qb has admitted many times) and should have been ruled an incomplete forward pass (on 4th down) and ended the game right then and there. And to this day, Jerry tried to tell us he made the right call (we won't mention the rest of his crew that day allowing Oakland players to deliberately kick the vall forward as if this was a rugby play till it ended up in the end zone). His incompetence on that one play stole a game from San Diego and is ranked by some as one of the worst calls in NFL history.
I know many look up to Jerry as one of the great refs of all time. He was certainly a very competent ref over the entirety of his career but no better than many guys who never got Super Bowl assignments (see Wyant, F or Nemmers, L or McCarter, G)....there was this thing that the only top referees were Markbreit, Tunney, Haggerty, Barth, Jorgenson (sorry if I left somebody out). But Jerry's failure to come to terms that he blew that call, does bother me when he goes out on the stump blasting the scabs for making bad calls. None of their bad calls, at least up till now, have been nowhere near as bad as that one. Too bad I haven't had the chance to interview him.
I'm with Mike on this one. I think the union has been just as unwilling to move as the league. If they cared for the game as much as they claim to, they could accept the league's position on pensions which I believe ultimately they're going to have to.
And I hope Jerry's big mouth doesn't cdost him his job as a trainer. His experience in that is quite helpful to the officials.
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Post by cj on Sept 22, 2012 7:19:47 GMT -5
Since many of the people here may not be old enough to remember the play, here it is.... tinyurl.com/y8ttnhjRemember this was before the rules that were passed to say that in the last 2 minutes of the half and at any time on 4th down, a forward fumble can only be recovered by the fumblee (this game caused the rule change) but..... When you propel the ball forward, that is a forward pass and the rule then specifically said a deliberate forward fumble is to be treated as a forward pass. There are clearly two of them. The one by Stabler which was the referee's responsibility and another one by Banazak in the sequence. I think they are clear as day and not subject to any question. Sure it's over 30 years ago but for Markbreit to continue to insist he and his crew got it right, please. I defy anybody to tell me the two deliberate forward passes are not clear as day on the play. So as I said, Jerry is a fine one to criticize the scabs for brutal calls. this one may have been one of the most brutal. |
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Post by FredFan7 on Sept 22, 2012 10:32:04 GMT -5
CJ, Jerry knows exactly what he's doing, and he knows his "big mouth" is probably costing him his position as a trainer (if he and the six other trainers weren't already toast for refusing to train the replacements).
At age 77, he might be ready to wash his hands of the NFL front office politics and let fly with his opinions.
All officials make bad calls. Norm Schacter's crew missed a down. Fred Silva blew an inadvertent whistle that let the Patriots into the playoffs and cost Miami a spot. Bill Leavy has lost sleep over his error in Super Bowl 41. I blew a call last night in my HS game. If your view is that officials can not talk about bad calls unless they've never blown a call, then officials will never talk about blown calls.
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Post by cj on Sept 22, 2012 10:41:17 GMT -5
CJ, Jerry knows exactly what he's doing, and he knows his "big mouth" is probably costing him his position as a trainer (if he and the six other trainers weren't already toast for refusing to train the replacements). At age 77, he might be ready to wash his hands of the NFL front office politics and let fly with his opinions. All officials make bad calls. Norm Schacter's crew missed a down. Fred Silva blew an inadvertent whistle that let the Patriots into the playoffs and cost Miami a spot. Bill Leavy has lost sleep over his error in Super Bowl 41. I blew a call last night in my HS game. If your view is that officials can not talk about bad calls unless they've never blown a call, then officials will never talk about blown calls. Fred...I agree completely with you and believe me I hope Jerry Markbreit doesn't lose his job (and I think part of the settlement will be these guys get their jobs back, I really hope so). Let me make that clear. Of course all officials make mistakes but I just think, he's been a bit over the top with all his appearances complaining about the scabs. I wish him no harm and hope as I have said part of the settlement will be he and the others get their jobs back. But his complaints are about officiating errors so I think it appropriate to bring it up and as I've said, while he was a very very good referee and don't doubt it for a second, sometimes I think he has been overrated as compared to others they constantly passed over for the big games but I suppose that's neither here nor there. Finally, of course it's been 34 yuears and that game was his first year as a referee after he replaced Tommy Bell. To this day, he maintains he made the right call. You and other members here are welcome to look at the play whose link I provided. He blew it big time on that play which changed the outcome of a game. Yes it happens whether you're a scab or a very well respected referee. That's all I find objectionable with his crusade through his appearances on the radio. Nothing more. |
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Post by mike on Sept 22, 2012 10:42:51 GMT -5
I do not want to put words in cj's mouth but what I think he is getting at is that Markbreit is not one to talk about the replacement officials affecting the outcome of a game when 1) no game has been affected because of the replacement officials and 2) Markbreit's error DID result in the wrong team winning. As long as Jerry Markbreit is putting out in public what he thinks of officials, others have every right to call him out on his own errors during his career
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Post by cj on Sept 22, 2012 10:55:18 GMT -5
CJ, Jerry knows exactly what he's doing, and he knows his "big mouth" is probably costing him his position as a trainer (if he and the six other trainers weren't already toast for refusing to train the replacements). At age 77, he might be ready to wash his hands of the NFL front office politics and let fly with his opinions. All officials make bad calls. Norm Schacter's crew missed a down. Fred Silva blew an inadvertent whistle that let the Patriots into the playoffs and cost Miami a spot. Bill Leavy has lost sleep over his error in Super Bowl 41. I blew a call last night in my HS game. If your view is that officials can not talk about bad calls unless they've never blown a call, then officials will never talk about blown calls. You made a bad call, Fred? I can't believe it. I suppose we'll have to adjust our mythical crew  |
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Post by FredFan7 on Sept 22, 2012 11:02:59 GMT -5
HA!
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Post by zebrablog on Sept 22, 2012 20:24:48 GMT -5
And to this day, Jerry tried to tell us he made the right call Well, he doesn't outright say he was wrong, but his defense: Every once in a while I see the play on television. And I cringe whenever I see it. ... From my position, behind him, I have to rule fumble. I don't see any kind of action [forward pass] by him at all. I saw this last year, and found it to be fair enough of an admission on Jerry's part. I was more surprised that Ken Stabler finally gave up the ruse and admitted he cheated. (Now we need to get Frenchy Fuqua on the record about the Immaculate Reception, although I think he's innocent.) Interestingly, Mike Pereira provided a quote, and he was not identified on screen as the former vice-president of officiating; everyone else is identified. Perhaps if Markbreit continues to take a pro-union public position, they will remove his lower-third, too. |
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Post by cj on Sept 22, 2012 20:54:10 GMT -5
zebra...I hdn't seen that one but I have heard Markbreit claim the league backed his call (internet wasn't around then and I don't remember what the league did say but of course it was during the dark ages of Art McNally when no error was ever acknowledged......
Besides...how do they explain Banazak on that play not getting tagged down field for his forward fumble.
I think, in all fairness, also that was a different time and I remember reading in Jerry's book that one impression that Tom Bell left him with his first year on Bell's crew was you officiate your positon (Jerry explains a call he made early in his career on Bell's man who gave him a verbal earful but then penalized). The actions of the qb were indeed only the obligation of the referee and rarely did other members of the crew come in and assist on calls like intentional grounding. If the referee missed it, so be it. And of course, there was no ir either to save their bacon.
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Post by zebrablog on Sept 22, 2012 21:20:06 GMT -5
I have seen the original broadcast on youtube, which has since disappeared into the ether. Very clearly a fumble, but as you say, a different philosophy back then as to fishing in someone else's pond. Never thought of that angle.
As far as the downfield fumble, it is difficult to say that Banaszak had possession to call it a fumble. Of course, the intent, which cannot be part of the ruling, was to shove the ball downfield without illegally batting it. Very artfully done, but, again, it's still cheating they got away with.
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