Tricky Baseball Play

[cj]

I hope this is an appropriate place to bring this up as I know there are some baseball umpires here. I went to a rules clinic the other day, although I'm long since retired, my nephew is an umpire and invited me because he considers me to be one of the foremost experts on baseball rules (as ell as other sports). In any event, I brought up my favorite trick play and nobody had a complete answer (nor do I) so maybe some of the guys here might wish to chime in (I don't know the absolutely correct answer, I think I do). Anyway.

Baseball game being played under pro rules. Last half inning, tied score. Home team has bases juiced and none out. Batter hits a fly ball to short left which is caught. First out of the inning. Runner on third tries to score. Going to be a close play but the catcher can't handle the throw and the ball goes out of play into the dug out. Game over on the walk off scoring fly ball (a term I'll bet Vin Scully has never used). Right. Everybody is jumping up and down hugging each other. But the third baseman has not left the field or crossed the foul line on the way to the dug out. With everybody else running (or walking) off the field, he announces he wishes to appeal the runner at third did not properly re-touch as the rule book reads (tag up as we say) third base. And the umpire knows the third baseman is right. The runner did leave too soon. Now comes the tricky parts of this knotty play.

1. How can the defensive team appeal. I mean the ball has become dead when it went out of play. If it's not a walk off situation, before the next pitcvh is thrown, the pitcher steps on the mount making the ball alive and then throws to third. But there is no next batter. So how can the appeal be made? How does the ball become alive when the game is apparently over?

2. At any other part of the game, that is if it isn't a walk off play (another term of course not in the rule book just like there is no term two line pass in the NHL rule book but we all know what it means or meant before they began fussing with the rules) the runner who had been on second would have been awarded home when the ball went out of play. But in this walk off situation, and it is not relevant whether or not he reached third, he abandoned the baseline. No need to score as the game is over. So now the defensive team appeals and the appeal is allowed, the runner on third did not re-touch. Is the runner who had been on second now out for abandoning the base line under the mistaken belief the game was over? Have we just witnessed a very unusual triple play?

I think we have but nobody has ever said for sure I'm right. Love to hear any umpires here with their views, for fun of course.

[Deleted]

The rule book allows an umpire to rule on any play that is not covered in the rule book
specifically. This my take - return the runners to 1st and 2nd - 2 outs - next batter in
order now at plate.

[cj]

Apr 4, 2013 13:20:00 GMT -5 @billump said:

The rule book allows an umpire to rule on any play that is not covered in the rule book
specifically. This my take - return the runners to 1st and 2nd - 2 outs - next batter in
order now at plate.

But you see, I'm not sure you can say it is not covered. There are provisions to call runners out for abandoning the baselines which the runner did...this is not a case where the umpire blundered and he can invoke the rule about undoing his blunder (the only blunder was the guy on third not re-touching, right?)...I disagree. I think it indeed is a triple play but I'm not completely sure.

[Deleted]

Luckily, in 33 years, I never had that play. And I certainly cannot say if either of us is right.
Our trainer always said to use common sense. In this particular case, with everyone run-
ning off the field thinking the game was over, and the ball being dead, and the runner(s)
ran off the field after the ball was dead, I would put the runners back on base. Maybe
the ruling should be runners on 2nd and 3rd with 2 out.

[cj]

Apr 5, 2013 6:35:58 GMT -5 @billump said:

Luckily, in 33 years, I never had that play. And I certainly cannot say if either of us is right.
Our trainer always said to use common sense. In this particular case, with everyone run-
ning off the field thinking the game was over, and the ball being dead, and the runner(s)
ran off the field after the ball was dead, I would put the runners back on base. Maybe
the ruling should be runners on 2nd and 3rd with 2 out.

I agree with you about common sense....but remember since the throw going into the dug out was not the first play by an infielder, each runner is entitled to advance 2 bases. If it isn't a walk off situation, the runner on second is awarded home plate whether he has reached third or not! So common sense would say okay we allow the appeal, the runner is out for leaving too soon (not re-touching) but the game is still over as the second run scores. I could buy that as a solution but I still think a literal interpretation of the rule book is we have just seen the weirdest triple play in history! ;D

My other brain twister of the day is under pro baseball rules that existed for the first century of major league play but no longer exist today, how could a team possibly fail to win a game if a member of that team hits a home run instead of striking out which it would have won...(note this rule has been changed as my hint!)

Of course these things are unlikely to happen but a good official's motto is to be prepared for the unusual. For example who would have ever thought there could be five penalties committed by one team on a football play, five holding penalties none of which were called and it worked to the benefit of that team (something everybody said they would have to address but then they realized there was really little that could be done about it). Betcha nobody every thought that could happen either.

[timdaye]

I'm no baseball umpire. But I am a former official and work in sports production for several college and pro teams. In short, I watch a lot of sports and pay close attention to the rules. It seems to me umpires have the ability to determine when time is out and when time is in. Correct me if I am wrong, but, as soon as that ball leaves the field, time is out. If the 3rd base umpire is going to allow this appeal, he better get his ducks in a row and do something to get those runners back to their bases prior to the appeal process being played out. In any event, it would completely unfair and definitely against the spirit of the game and the rules to call either the 1st or 2nd base runner out and make this a triple play. This is where common sense applies and you have to make your own fair & just decisions. Common sense would dictate that you call the runner at 3rd out, put the runners back on 1st & 2nd and then advance them their 2 bases on the overthrow. Kind of like that play last season where there was a grand slam awarded via replay. They put everyone back, made the batter take a fake swing and then everyone ran the bases. But, if any umpire was to ever call that a triple play, he'd better pack his lunch box because he's going to have one helluva time getting off that field in one piece. And, if I was the team on the short-end of that stick, I'd not return to the field pending an investigation by the governing body.

[cj]

Look, I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong; I'm simply not sure. Common sense may say one thing, the rule book may say another if interpreted literally (see Sam Holbrook and the infield fly which I don't think anybody is 100% sure was the correct call and note they did nothing to clarify it during the off season but they did rule the important play where a pitcher fakes to third and tries a pickoff at first is now a balk' sometimes I question whether they have their priorities in the right place but that's something else).

Bt a more straight forward question I don't know the answer to. Say the play started with one out. The catch in left field is the second out. Same scenario. Ball goes out of play. Irrelevant about the runner on second now. If the runner is called out at third for failure to re-touch, no run can score on the play anyway. So here's still my question for baseball umpires.

With the ball having become dead because it has gone into the dugout, and the game apparently being over, how does the defensive team with the third baseman not having crossed the foul line on the way to the dug out make the ball alive to appeal. In any situation other than a walk off situation, on this play, the pitcher steps on the rubber making the ball alive and throws to third base. How can the ball become alive to make the appeal in this case?