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Post by cj on Jul 10, 2011 15:10:38 GMT -5
The best sporting event of the day, by far, was the woman's World Cup Soccer Match between the USA and Brazil. I'm sure most of you didn't watch it but also I'm sure you will be seeing highlights on television (and it will be replayed on ESPN2 this evening and the game in its entirety is available on ESPN3 right now.
In any event, the referee was identified throughout the telecast as being from Australia although one of the game summaries claims she was from Austria. No matter. It was what is wrong with FIFA officiating whether it be men's or somen's World Cups.
With the USA leading 1 nil about midway through the second half, there was a very nebulous penalty called against the USA and to top it off the USA defender was shown a red card. The penalty was dubious although there have been worse penalties called in soccer (see USA-Ghana in the 2006 Men's World Cup with the infamous German dentist masquerading as a referee), the red card was bogus. And after the USA keeper made the save, they ordered a retake for some reason that wasn't properly explained.
In any event, the US woman fought valiantly playing 10 against 11 to foce the game into extra time but early in the first half of extra time, Brazil scored (the commentators said it might have been offside but I didn't think so)....then Brazil began stalling. One player was carted off the field and as soon as the stretcher reached the end line, she miraculously recovered and ran back into the play looking none the worse for wear. In any event, they announced 3 minutes of stoppage time in the second half of extra time and in the 122nd minute, the USA somehow managed to pull out a tieing goal literally on just bout the last play of the game. The US went on to win in PK's.
But the officiating was the pits and damn near cost the USA the game! Maybe there are worse officials than Angel Hernandez or Phil Cuzzi in other sports.
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Post by zcr57 on Jul 10, 2011 15:42:33 GMT -5
I watched the game too (nothing better on TV on a Sunday morning) and was thinking the same thing. I didn't think the red card was necessary and I didn't understand why Brazil was awarded another penalty kick.
Soccer is a sport that's about 100 years behind the times. They're still playing with the same set of rules that they used when the game was founded, and haven't done much to change it.
It's pretty sad that the gal who got the red card has to sit out for the next game, even though it wasn't a grievous offense.
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Post by timdaye on Jul 11, 2011 16:12:15 GMT -5
I used to be a USSF State Referee. Its about 1/4 of the way up the referee food chain. What I know is this. FIFA is run by a bunch of stodgy old men who probably haven't had or entertained an original thought in their stodgy old lives. All they really know how to do, allegedly, is take bribes and get with hookers. They know there's a lot lacking when it comes to the mechanics of the 3-man system. But, they'll never change it because this is how its always been. Before technology, no one really knew how bad (or good) their decisions were. Now we do. And, becuase of technology, people are less tolerant of bad decisions. But, it all goes back to that "Its always been this way" mentality. God forbid they should add another on-field referee or off-field goal judges or ask their linesmen for help. After all the, linesmen aren't referee's they are assistant referee's. Well... let them assist. I know they are out there doing the best they can. But its a big, big field with a lot of bodies on it. Its just not possible to see everything.
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Post by timdaye on Jul 11, 2011 16:17:24 GMT -5
Highlights here:
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Post by cj on Jul 11, 2011 18:17:25 GMT -5
I used to be a USSF State Referee. Its about 1/4 of the way up the referee food chain. What I know is this. FIFA is run by a bunch of stodgy old men who probably haven't had or entertained an original thought in their stodgy old lives. All they really know how to do, allegedly, is take bribes and get with hookers. They know there's a lot lacking when it comes to the mechanics of the 3-man system. But, they'll never change it because this is how its always been. Before technology, no one really knew how bad (or good) their decisions were. Now we do. And, becuase of technology, people are less tolerant of bad decisions. But, it all goes back to that "Its always been this way" mentality. God forbid they should add another on-field referee or off-field goal judges or ask their linesmen for help. After all the, linesmen aren't referee's they are assistant referee's. Well... let them assist. I know they are out there doing the best they can. But its a big, big field with a lot of bodies on it. Its just not possible to see everything. Correct me if I'm wrong but when I watch FIFA or CONCACAF or UEFA games on the telly, aren't the referee and the 2 AR's as well as the fourth official wearing headsets to communicate with each other and aren't many calls initiated by the AR's by signalling with their flags? I understand it's ultimately the referee's call to accept the call of the AR but they almost always do. If the AR raises his flag for off side, how often does a referee not accept the call? Personally, and I know I'm in the minority but not toally so, I think the 2 referee system in the NHL has been an unmitigated disaster. The officiating today is far far worse than it was years ago with one referee. It leads to nonsense such as a referee close to a play letting some marginal thing go but the butt insky from centre ice calls it. Or a play between squarely between the "jurisdiction cut off" of the two referees not called because each is waiting for the other to make the call and the call is missed. Most importantly, it's an extra body on what is already a too small ice surface and often times the trailing referee interferes with a breakout play (this happened to Paul Devorski early in overtime of a Ranger-Capital playoff games when his being on the ice prevented a pass that would have led to a Ranger 2-0 attack and might have changed that series; it happens all th etime). Besides, it is not as important now in the NHL because the replay system handles all disputed goals. Soccer could take a lesson from hockey; after all they are essentially the same sport played on different media (ice vs. grass). The referee's decisions in the two sports are similar. It would help the referee immensly if they introduced IR at least at first for goal or no goal similar to the NHL. While the field is large enough so interfering with play is not as much an issue, you want the same call to be made at each end of the pitch so I am not sure adding a second referee would be a wise thing to do. They might consider taking the timing of the game away from the referee and putting it in the hands of the fourth official. As a matter of fact, when I first started watching the NFL in the early 1960's, the official time was kept on the field by one of the officials (there was no LJ then) and there was a scoreboard clock but it was unofficial. When the AFL came into being, one of the things they did was make the scoreboard clock official. The NFL not wishing to admit the AFL was doing something better than them, then went to a system where the scoreboard clock was official but its starting and stopping was controlled with a radio transmitter on the field. Soccer should do the same thing and everybody should know the exact status of the clock at all times. None of this well we'll add 30 seconds for this injury and 45 seconds for this goal celebration which always eems arbitrary. I've watched soccer games with friends in England and made this point and they tell me it's one of the myhstiques of the game that nobody knows exactly when the game will end. Sometimes, Howard Webb might get tired of running up and down the field and end a game. Other times if Manchester United is trailing by a goal, he might let stoppage time go longer. The official clock should be out there for all to see, controlled by the referee if you will and when something happens that should be part of stoppage time, he simply stops the clock and starts it again when the situation is rectifid and when the clock reaches 45 minutes, the half is over. None of this extending the play to allow a team to take a free kick. Or whatever you want to do. This would be a start to improving the game. But as the NHL has shown quite clearly, the officiating today with the extra referee is far worse than when you had the same consistancy at both ends of the ice. |
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Post by JugglingReferee on Jul 11, 2011 21:40:21 GMT -5
The weekly over/under should be how many times cj will bash the NHL 2-Referee system. In the off-season it sits at 2½, and in-season, 11½.
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Post by cj on Jul 11, 2011 21:51:49 GMT -5
It was a response to a post, not initiated by me to bash the NHL 2 ref system (the post recommended a 2 ref system for soccer)...there's other stuff in the response too.
But if it's irksome to you, your over/under should be 0 as I won't bring it up again!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2011 22:45:08 GMT -5
They just need to get instant replay in. But it sounds like FIFA is run by Bud Selig's brother.
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Post by timdaye on Jul 12, 2011 15:18:33 GMT -5
Just a quick reply to the AR's duties. Their prioroties are in this order.
1) Offside
2) Determination of balls in and out of play
3) Assisting in fouls
It is totally up the referee whether he chooses to accept or ignore the flag of an AR. Some referee accept them all, some have an ego too big to presume an AR can call a foul. It just depends on the refereee.
The 4th official's primary job is handling substitutions and controlling the sideline. His opinion may be taken into consideration if the referee and ARs did not see a situation.
I hope this info helps.
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Post by cj on Jul 13, 2011 12:51:23 GMT -5
Just a quick reply to the AR's duties. Their prioroties are in this order. 1) Offside 2) Determination of balls in and out of play 3) Assisting in fouls It is totally up the referee whether he chooses to accept or ignore the flag of an AR. Some referee accept them all, some have an ego too big to presume an AR can call a foul. It just depends on the refereee. The 4th official's primary job is handling substitutions and controlling the sideline. His opinion may be taken into consideration if the referee and ARs did not see a situation. I hope this info helps. Hi Tim...maybe you can help me wih something I've always wondered about. I understand thelaw basically is you play running time of 45 minutes per half but the half is extended by the referee to make up for stoppage such as injuries and other delays....and it's totally at the discretion of the referee and now they announce the minimum amount of stoppage time but.. what does the referee do to keep track of this? Does he have two watches one for the game clock and the other for injuries or other delays? Or does he look at an injury and arbitrarily decide well this injury looks like I should add on 45 seconds and this delay means I add on 30 seconds and as his watch nears 45 minutes and/or 90 minutes he makes a statement of just about how much extra time he has has decided to add on. |
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Post by timdaye on Jul 13, 2011 13:45:00 GMT -5
From what I remember, it depends on the match and the referee. International matches have a 4th official. He can assist in keeping track of stoppage time. Some referees will carry an additional stopwatch to keep track of stoppage time. Some of the fancier wrist watches have a feature to help keep track of stoppage time. Lastly, some referees just kind of guesstimate. They look at their watch when a stoppage begins and ends and guess. At lower levels, the referee instructors will tell you to just stop your watch and that's the easiest way to add time. I have never been completely sure of why that is not just the norm. It probably goes back to, "That's the way its always been done" mentality. The NCAA stops the clock for all cautions/ejections, goals and penalty kicks (High School too I believe). I think there is also a clock-stoppage for subs in the last 5 minutes of the game. Thank you for your question. 5 cents please.  |
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Post by mike on Jul 13, 2011 14:00:16 GMT -5
I know when I officiated in a league that used a continuous clock I would use a second stopwatch to keep track of injury time
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Post by cj on Jul 13, 2011 20:55:57 GMT -5
From what I remember, it depends on the match and the referee. International matches have a 4th official. He can assist in keeping track of stoppage time. Some referees will carry an additional stopwatch to keep track of stoppage time. Some of the fancier wrist watches have a feature to help keep track of stoppage time. Lastly, some referees just kind of guesstimate. They look at their watch when a stoppage begins and ends and guess. At lower levels, the referee instructors will tell you to just stop your watch and that's the easiest way to add time. I have never been completely sure of why that is not just the norm. It probably goes back to, "That's the way its always been done" mentality. The NCAA stops the clock for all cautions/ejections, goals and penalty kicks (High School too I believe). I think there is also a clock-stoppage for subs in the last 5 minutes of the game. Thank you for your question. 5 cents please. Do you have a paypal account? If you do, I'll send you your fee! |
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Post by zcr57 on Jul 13, 2011 21:14:05 GMT -5
From what I remember, it depends on the match and the referee. International matches have a 4th official. He can assist in keeping track of stoppage time. Some referees will carry an additional stopwatch to keep track of stoppage time. Some of the fancier wrist watches have a feature to help keep track of stoppage time. Lastly, some referees just kind of guesstimate. They look at their watch when a stoppage begins and ends and guess. At lower levels, the referee instructors will tell you to just stop your watch and that's the easiest way to add time. I have never been completely sure of why that is not just the norm. It probably goes back to, "That's the way its always been done" mentality. The NCAA stops the clock for all cautions/ejections, goals and penalty kicks (High School too I believe). I think there is also a clock-stoppage for subs in the last 5 minutes of the game. Thank you for your question. 5 cents please. Instead of making the referee hassle with figuring out how much time needs to be added at the end of the half, why not put a rule into place that allows the clock to stop for scores, injuries, and other delays? It seems to me that if a game were to be held up by lightning or some other event that causes a lengthy delay, the clock would keep running and more "injury time" would be added... |
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Post by cj on Jul 13, 2011 21:30:12 GMT -5
From what I remember, it depends on the match and the referee. International matches have a 4th official. He can assist in keeping track of stoppage time. Some referees will carry an additional stopwatch to keep track of stoppage time. Some of the fancier wrist watches have a feature to help keep track of stoppage time. Lastly, some referees just kind of guesstimate. They look at their watch when a stoppage begins and ends and guess. At lower levels, the referee instructors will tell you to just stop your watch and that's the easiest way to add time. I have never been completely sure of why that is not just the norm. It probably goes back to, "That's the way its always been done" mentality. The NCAA stops the clock for all cautions/ejections, goals and penalty kicks (High School too I believe). I think there is also a clock-stoppage for subs in the last 5 minutes of the game. Thank you for your question. 5 cents please. Instead of making the referee hassle with figuring out how much time needs to be added at the end of the half, why not put a rule into place that allows the clock to stop for scores, injuries, and other delays? It seems to me that if a game were to be held up by lightning or some other event that causes a lengthy delay, the clock would keep running and more "injury time" would be added... I may have posted this here before but if I did, my apologies... The North American Soccer League operated in the 1970's long before mls. They tried to "Americdanize" the game with some interesting innovations. One of them was the clock. In the NASL, there was a clock operator who started and stopped the clock upon signal from the referee. It wasn't dramatically different than the way a soccer game is timed namely the clock ran for the most part except for injuries and delays for excessive celebration of a goal (I don't remember if the NASL was around after they began allowing substiutions but the clock would be stopped for a substiution). Everybody knew at all times the status of the clock and when it reached 45 minutes the half was over. Period; much like an ice hockey period is over the instant the clock reaches 0 (although they count down in hockey) and even if a puck has been shot it must have crossed the goal line before the clock reaches 0 (I once suggested there should be an iron gate on the hockey nets which slams down the instant the clock runs out but of course somebody asked me what would happe if a goalkeeper was on the ice with his neck on the goal line when this happened; well hockey is supposed to be a violent game). Anyway I'm not sure if a soccer referee allows a play to continue to cmpletion because I rarely see a final whistle while a team is attacking; it almost seems as if they wait till the ball is not really in a critical area to blow the final whisztle. |
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