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Post by cj on Jan 17, 2012 17:14:58 GMT -5
Great blog in today's NY Times 5th Quarter regarding the infamous (at least to Ron Winters) ending of the Giants-Niners playoff game from nine years ago. Now the story is there was mass confusion as to who was eligible and who wasn't. You guys should find it enjoyable.
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Post by FredFan7 on Jan 17, 2012 19:14:23 GMT -5
I couldn't find the story. Does anyone have a link?
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Post by FredFan7 on Jan 17, 2012 19:16:33 GMT -5
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Post by FredFan7 on Jan 17, 2012 19:28:34 GMT -5
Look at all the stuff that happened before the FG. What is not mentioned is that there were two major brawls started by Terrell Owens taunting. The officials flagged Owens for taunting but the Giants took the bait - TWICE - and started brawls, offsetting fouls (Giants get free 15 yards if they walk away) leading to one Giants ejection. A complete Giants meltdown lead to the end of the game dramatics.
Yes, the error at the end of the game was a major one. I'm sure the crew wanted to die after that one. It took Winter several years to recover from it and just in the last five years or so has started receiving playoff assignments again.
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Post by FredFan7 on Jan 17, 2012 19:33:12 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2012 19:48:52 GMT -5
The Giants lost the game on a bad hold the league never said I wish MP had. As far as i'm concerned Pi is a judgement call and there is no such thing as a bad judgement call.
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Post by BTFS Admin on Jan 17, 2012 21:52:37 GMT -5
Officials blew it. Moving on. It seems like beating a dead horse to me.
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Post by timdaye on Jan 18, 2012 17:48:39 GMT -5
I know most of you have been or are football referees. I used to ref soccer. So let me ask you all this. Isn't proper procedure to throw the flag for DPI and then huddle-up to determine the eligibility of the receiver? Or, in lieu of that, throw a delayed flag (I know... no one likes those) once the eligibility is determined? Either of one of these actions would have corrected this error. It seems to me the covering official probably said to himself "That's pass interference, but that dude's ineligible." Meaning, if he discovered the player was eligible, he could've thrown the delayed flag. Would any of these scenarios fly?
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Post by cj on Jan 18, 2012 18:36:22 GMT -5
I know most of you have been or are football referees. I used to ref soccer. So let me ask you all this. Isn't proper procedure to throw the flag for DPI and then huddle-up to determine the eligibility of the receiver? Or, in lieu of that, throw a delayed flag (I know... no one likes those) once the eligibility is determined? Either of one of these actions would have corrected this error. It seems to me the covering official probably said to himself "That's pass interference, but that dude's ineligible." Meaning, if he discovered the player was eligible, he could've thrown the delayed flag. Would any of these scenarios fly? Ryan asked us to drop it but still... You're making the point I've tried to make to people on that play. What has evolved over the years, not meaning to be critical, is full of half truths to a large degree and we've discussed it here before and I don't want you to scurry back to my conjectures but I've never changed mine. 1. The officials were set up for a field goal. As it has evolved, that means the back and field judges are under the goal posts. The side judge comes in to be parallel with the umpire one on each side. The referee is back with the kicker. The head linesman and line judge are at the los. The play develops. It takes a second or two to dawn on the two guys under the goal posts no kick is forthcoming that it is going to be a pass play so they begin trying to get into position to cover their man. The field judge heads to establish his position at the pylon in this case on his left side (the right pylon as the kicking team is moving). The back judge starts coming in from center field so to speak. Meanwhile the side judge has his responsibilities on the left side in this case actions on the left side. The pass is thrown. Now here's what is forgotten in so many of today's reviews of that play. There was a Giant player downfield illegally and that was properly flagged by the side judge. He's keying on his man. Both the field judge and the back judge (the back judge was Scott Green, I don't remember who the field judge was) have a mass of humanity between them and the pass receiver. Neither makes any call neither dpi or illegal downfield against the Giant receiver. Why? Probably because as hard as it is for us to believe, it is possible neither could see the 49er defender climbing the Giant receiver's back. Chris Mortensen wrote in his column that Green did not make the call because he thought the Giant receiver was ineligible. In no statement after the game did Mike Periera say that. As a matter of fact even now I would love to hear from either Mike Periera or Scott Green what happened. Perhaps after Green retires. The other officials are carrying out their responsiblities. Whether anybody else on the field and just didn't want to step over their own re3sponsibilities because one thing they teach you in a multi person officiating system is this is your man and your call and try not to make another guy's call again, we'll never know until somebody explains. In any event, flags are down (the video link shown does not show all this. They don't have on you tube the NFL being deficient in this regard as compared say to the NHL where tapes of all significant plays can be found on you tube. The tape of the play as shown on television is not available)...anyway Ron Winter the referee announces illegal down field never indicating who, the game is over and everybody starts leaving the field. The post game shows are not about the missed call; everybody assumes the Giant receiver was downfield illegally and there is no controversy. The post game show is all about that the Giant holder should have spiked the ball stopping the clock since it was third down. It wasn't until the next day the you know what really hit the fan. The NFL issues a statement indicating the man illegally downfield was not the Giant foulee but on the other side and that was properly called but that dpi should have been called against the eligible receiver. At no point does the statement say, nor did Periera say at the time, that the call was not made because they thought the Giant receiver was illegally downfield. The statement then goes on to say that there should have been offsetting penalties and that even though the clock had run out, there should have been an untimed down. Now over the years, stories change and people forget and there have been a whole bunch of storiers today in the NY papers mostly about not blaming the long snapper and blaming Ron Winter like he had anything to do with it but then of course most fans do not have any comprehension of the roles of the various officials and think the referee makes all final decisions (but in most cases, he just passes along the information)...and I am quite sure on the pre game shows on Sunday this play will come up again and perhaps Fox will show its original tape from behind the Giant kicker and you can watch the actions of the back and field judges. Since no flag was throw either for the dpi or for the Giant receiver, not the guy on the other side who was, I will continue to believe it was just one of those plays where everybody did their job and the nature of the play itself namely a botched field goal led to a lot of chaos. Sorry Ryan but I am not official bashing here as we're gong to hear quite a bit about this play between now and Sunday and it will be interesting to hear Periera who I am sure will do a segment on it on Sunday and others chime in (with Jimmy Johnson still insisting the holder should have spiked the ball since it was third down and there would have been time for another kick which is why you call time out with five or six seconds to play not two)... I hope that answers your question. |
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Post by cj on Jan 18, 2012 18:50:34 GMT -5
Now here's one on the same play, again Ryan it's a fascinating play and I am not official bashing. I forget if instant replay is back; I'm pretty sure it is. Should the replay official have challenged the ruling ineligible downfield which is all Winter said. Winter goes under the hood and verifies there was an ineligible man downfield but not Seubert the Giant eligible reciever who was fouled. Penalties are not supposed to be reviewable. What does he do? What does the league observer do? Does he then come out, talk to Green or talk to anybody else and make up what might be a fictiteous story that dpi was not called because the back judge thought the player was ineligible? What might have been said while Winter was under the hood? It's again one of those fascinating wht ifs that we can debate forever.
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Post by BTFS Admin on Jan 18, 2012 21:51:21 GMT -5
Since you elaborated quite a bit cj, it's all good. Carry on.
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