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Post by FredFan7 on Sept 10, 2012 9:57:11 GMT -5
Ray Anderson was quite chirpy about the early game crews doing well, but the drumbeat of errors in the media regarding late game foul-ups is pretty overwhelming.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 11:48:36 GMT -5
Well if the real refs would accept what the NFL is asking which includes a pay raise for a job that for most officials is a second job (and one that pays more than most people make in their first job) we would have them back Mike, what does the fact that they work another job have to do with what they are wanting to be paid? The pay is commensurate with their scrutiny and responsibility. It doesn't matter that some in America are HS dropouts or not working in a field that they absolutely love. As I've said before, just because being an official in the NFL "pays more than most people make in their first job" to quote you is irrelevant. Maybe most people who make less should have started officiating many years ago as a hobby, which didn't always pay more than "most people make in their first job." I don't know what you do for a living, but I bet you had a choice to be a doctor, a lawyer, an actor, but maybe not a professionally gifted athlete? NFL players make a lot of money, NFL owners and other front office personnel make a lot of money, why shouldn't NFL officials make a lot of money? It is a SKILLED TRADE. Just because they have jobs outside of officiating (which I'm sure they busted their butts to achieve also), why should they just be grateful for the crumbs of a pay raise that the NFL offers? These guys make more than enough with their regular job that they aren't dying financially. Look at the Chicago Teachers Union going on strike and they make way less than an nfl official.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 12:13:56 GMT -5
I believe that the discussion about their compensation has been exhausted - it is time for the adults to sit down and make a reasonable compromise for the good of the game.
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Post by zebrablog on Sept 10, 2012 12:41:23 GMT -5
A 5-11% pay raise is crumbs? This is why the media cannot accurately express a negotiation. Both sides are using nonequivalent and nebulous figures (what a "rookie" makes in 8 years when they mean an 8th year official in 8 years, yearly vs. duration of contract, base compensation vs. overall compensation). If the NFL proposes a 5-11% pay raise, but the official now has to (hypothetically) contribute 5% to a 401(k), some have essentially broken even right there. If there are 3 additional crews, meaning 2 more bye weeks, that is a 10% decrease in pay (also 10% decrease in work, in fairness to the management side). So now, for the sake of closing the deal, one side has emerged behind where they were last decade. Same can be said, though, for the NFL accepting the union's proposal. Then there are the intangibles; one example: The league wants to be able to more aggressively manage the performance of the officials (their right to do so) and the union would like to be protected from it (their right to do so). It doesn't mean that the officials are afraid of accountability, necessarily, but that they could be phased out much too easily. And it doesn't mean that the league is going to send a whole slew of officials to pasture, but they do want some control week-to-week as opposed to season-to-season. But when we hear the "score" as to how far apart the sides are, we are no better informed as to the true state of the negotiations.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 12:43:02 GMT -5
The NFL offials aren't starving, but I don't see that as a reason to accept a bad offer from owners who are certainly "not starving" as much as working people. Again, puzzles me why working folks who repeatedly get short changed by owners & management would side with NFL owners & management unless they just want the refs to be manhandled the way they have been in there jobs!
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Post by JAYJAYSTRIPES on Sept 10, 2012 12:45:57 GMT -5
I put this on another site, but I think it bears some repeating: Let me throw out some thoughts, agree with them... fine; disagree... fine When I was working before retirement, we had crews, were assigned games, paid game fees per the approved schedule. We all had our regular jobs, and worked as sub contractors to the schools, leagues. I had this in all levels I worked High School, College, Semi Pro. without any union. Why do the NFL officials even need a union? They had none coming up through the ranks, so why now? The only thing the union is good for, is to tap the officials pockets to make some union rich, or to line some attorneys pocket. Let the league and officials deal with one another one on one, let the league set the paramaters, and if the guys want to work, they work, otherwise they can find someone who wants the position. This would also give some flexibility to keep only the best, most qualified people on the field. That's my thought for today.
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Post by russ on Sept 10, 2012 13:21:20 GMT -5
Mike, MLB umps are not working 7 games per week, they might work 4. Just because baseball is played 7 days a week, doesn't mean there are umps working that much, and if so, it's not frequent as you said in your above post. The veteran umps in addition to making close to $400K per year also have 5 weeks of vacation. Why would someone need five weeks of vaca for a 7 month gig? Not to mention that MLB doesn't generate near the revenue of the NFL. You are not correct here. First of all, Umpires get three weeks of vacation in a six month season, not five. Second of all, where did you get the fact that they work for games a week. Every Umpire who is healthy or not on vacation is working at least six games a week, sometimes seven or eight depending on the schedule and rain make ups and what not. You can argue all you want about the NFL and what they get paid, but Mike is right on the money as far as MLB Umpires are concerned. These guys are working a little Six-Eight months per season including spring training and depending on post season assignments. They don't even have the time to have a second job, it is just work work work for six months. Now the NFL schedule works in a way that allows for a second job and I don't blame these Officials for having those jobs. But they should try to be a little more reasonable with these negotiations and realize the NFL is not craving them as much as they think. Writers can write what they want about scabs being bad and it won't do a damn thing. Mario Williams can blame the scabs for losing by 20 points and it won't do a thing. NFL Officials get 2 weeks off in a four months season. For comparison's sake, if the season was a six months season that would equate to a third week off for every Official WHICH IS THE SAME AS UMPIRES. So you argument is flawed right there. My $0.02
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Post by intheknow on Sept 10, 2012 13:41:19 GMT -5
Mike, MLB umps are not working 7 games per week, they might work 4. Just because baseball is played 7 days a week, doesn't mean there are umps working that much, and if so, it's not frequent as you said in your above post. The veteran umps in addition to making close to $400K per year also have 5 weeks of vacation. Why would someone need five weeks of vaca for a 7 month gig? Not to mention that MLB doesn't generate near the revenue of the NFL. You are not correct here. First of all, Umpires get three weeks of vacation in a six month season, not five. Second of all, where did you get the fact that they work for games a week. Every Umpire who is healthy or not on vacation is working at least six games a week, sometimes seven or eight depending on the schedule and rain make ups and what not. You can argue all you want about the NFL and what they get paid, but Mike is right on the money as far as MLB Umpires are concerned. These guys are working a little Six-Eight months per season including spring training and depending on post season assignments. They don't even have the time to have a second job, it is just work work work for six months. Now the NFL schedule works in a way that allows for a second job and I don't blame these Officials for having those jobs. But they should try to be a little more reasonable with these negotiations and realize the NFL is not craving them as much as they think. Writers can write what they want about scabs being bad and it won't do a damn thing. Mario Williams can blame the scabs for losing by 20 points and it won't do a thing. NFL Officials get 2 weeks off in a four months season. For comparison's sake, if the season was a six months season that would equate to a third week off for every Official WHICH IS THE SAME AS UMPIRES. So you argument is flawed right there. My $0.02 Well, rookies up to 20 year vets all get four weeks off for vacation, I just checked...So I was wrong by a week, so were you. They work as many games as they are assigned per week with their crew which can be 5-6 dpeending on where there off days fall, and rarely 7. So I was incorrect by 1-2 games per week. I do not profess to be ITK on matters of MLB baseball umpiring, otherwise I would post on such a message board, but we know that they are designated as full time by the league. The whole point of my argument is that it is irrelevant to compare NFL officiating jobs to that of a teacher, business man, garbage man, or assembly line worker. Regardless of what they do in their day jobs, it doesn't matter. If the players are getting increases, as well as owners and everyone else involved as new TV deals are negotiated over the years, it's not unreasonable to expect COLAs as an official as well. People might feel they have an entitlement complex but oh well. According to the fans and the everyday "Joe" last year's NFLPA lockout was argued as "Millionaires vs. Billionaires" so would they have been struggling without a raise? NO. Were they entitled to one? YES. Even though these raises were far and above the salary of a teacher, POTUS, garbage man, you name it...doesn't mean that they are asking for too much. Just my $.04 keep the change
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Post by zebrablog on Sept 10, 2012 14:33:41 GMT -5
Why do the NFL officials even need a union? ... Let the league and officials deal with one another one on one, let the league set the paramaters,... I think you answered your own question there. Since the league office represents 32 teams, collectively, it makes sense to bargain with employees collectively.
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Post by cj on Sept 10, 2012 18:04:19 GMT -5
We've argued back and forth and of course, what we say here means NOTHING. To me, and no I don't know anything otyhers don't know but I try to read between the lines, the pension issue is the key sticking point. Probably everything else can be negotiated. And the NFL has made it clear they are not budging on the pension issue. Everything else, we can argue here from our respective points of views. Of course, the people here who are interested in officiating see the mistakes they want to point out and some of them have been well bad. But then again, Jerry Markbreit is considered by many to be one of the great referees of all time and he blew it big time in the Holy Roller game (unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a replay on you tubee but even at that time, before the rule changes that play brought on, a deliberate forward fumble was to be treated as a forward pass and the Oakland qb flung the ball forward to keep the game alive. Markbreit should have ruled it an incomplete forward pass and the game would have been over. And Jerry remains in denial till this day but okay...). Of course Becky's favorite referee blew it big time about 5 or 6 years ago in the Denver-San Diego game when he ruled what was an obvious fumble an incomplete forward pass and we discovered the replay could change the call to a fumble but the ball was dead at that point which led to today's rule changes where we play through the whistle on such plays. Then of course Phil Luckett's line judge who confused Vinny Testaverde's helmet breaking the plane of the goal line for the football in a game that cost the Seattle coach his job (and probably brought back replay).
Will I agree the scabs are more likely to make a game changiong error? Absotively posilutely. But no matter how many of the official wannabes feel here, the legue is willing to take the chance. For the most part, although yes there have been errors, none of the errors whether by luck or not have really changed a game (and please let's not talk about missed holding calls or missed blocks in the back, those happen every game and twice on Sunday). As far as the League is concerned, the officiating has been adequate no matter how Mario Williams thinks.
Face it guys. We can groan and moan here all we want. It isn't going to change the league's view on this. If the regulars are to be back in the near future, they're gong to have to give on the pensions or continue to hope there will be some call (of curse can it be more egregeous than the holy roller call or Ed Hochulhi's call in Denver or Phil Luckett's line judge's call in the Jet-Settle game or even Terry McCauley ignoring his own signal that Cleveland had run a play in Clevelandgate to do what was, by rule, an illegal review that might have cost the Browns a playoff spot or McCauley ridiculous dpi call against Buffalo on a hail mary in New England which was roundly criticized by Jerry Seeman at the time). I don't mean to pick on any of these people but mistakes are going to happen and big mistakes at that. This isn't brain surgery. It's judgments, sometimes flawed judgments, being made by human beings. C'est la vie.
Am becoming more convinced the officials will have to give in on this.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 18:08:52 GMT -5
I hate to say this but these replacement refs were pretty solid from what I saw. Honestly, I didn't see a major differece between the replacements and the real officials. Let's give credit were credits due!!!!
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Post by becky10 on Sept 10, 2012 18:50:22 GMT -5
Not renewing #NFLSundayTicket Next yr.... Grrrrrr #NFL @nflcommish.. No REAL #Referees.. no $$$ from me.... What a Waste of $300 for the TV NFL Sunday Ticket and Internet Version.... This YR!
Only reason I got DirecTV and NFL Sunday Ticket and over $900 to trim trees is to watch the REAL NFL Referees & Officials....
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Post by cj on Sept 10, 2012 18:53:20 GMT -5
Not renewing #NFLSundayTicket Next yr.... Grrrrrr #NFL @nflcommish.. No REAL #Referees.. no $$$ from me.... What a Waste of $300 for the TV NFL Sunday Ticket and Internet Version.... This YR! Only reason I got DirecTV and NFL Sunday Ticket and over $900 to trim trees is to watch the REAL NFL Referees & Officials.... That Becky puts you in the distinct minority.....
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 19:45:50 GMT -5
Your missing a great performance tonight Becky. So far I've seen them award a long TD catch for Baltimore that clearly should have been overturned in replay per Mike Pereira & Gerald Austin. Next series They called Illegal block in the back with no contact to basically end the Ravens drive. Integrity of the game compromised? It is, by the way, completely up to the Referee what the ruling is in replay...replay officials have no say. At least that's the case with the real officials, so these regular replay guys have never had to rule on replays before. Scabs should maybe poll the fans...having never made a decision in replay either, they're just as qualified! If this keeps up we'll being seeing the real refs soon.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 19:50:38 GMT -5
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