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Post by FredFan7 on Jul 27, 2011 13:42:18 GMT -5
There's a great story in Dave Phillips' book about him working the dish in the 1987 World Series. A throw from the Twins beat Don Baylor by several feet. Baylor gave up and gave a token slide as if to say, "I'm out, you got me." Phillips called Baylor out, inning over, everyone change up. Midway through the break, the Metrodome broke out into thunderous boos. TV was showing replays and the catcher failed to tag Baylor. The catcher had the ball and Baylor hadn't even gotten to the dirt cutout of the plate area - but the catcher never tagged Baylor.
CJ, the Braves would have offered token arguments at worst against Meals, but I doubt there would have been a riot.
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Post by FredFan7 on Jul 27, 2011 13:47:24 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2011 14:16:40 GMT -5
oled? What does that mean? This once again shows why MLB and the NBA have the worst officiating because their commissioners don't care.
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Post by cj on Jul 27, 2011 14:40:24 GMT -5
Fred...I'll stick with what I said and was taught in my training....don 't try to be Mr. Know it all, don't show off. On a play such as that, if the ball beats the runner even at the plate by that wide a margin and is handled by the fielder (catcher in this case), call the guy out because that's the accepted way it is in baseball (just like, I think I've used this here before on a 4-6-3 double play, a good short stop is often across the bag before the ball arrives. Don't get cute, I was taught. Call the guy out as long as it was smoothly handled even though technically he is safe. There are certain things we accept in sports because the players accept it from the time they begin playing professionally. Same is true in football; don't know your position but do you want every single play that can possibly be called a hold to be called or do you try to use some common sense and as an official evaluate how much effect it had on a play? (I don't do football so I'm asking) but I keep hearing of holding at the point of attack.
To suddenly pull out well he oled him in the last of the 19th inning just doesn't look right, I'm sorry. I saw a cuople of similar calls over the years. In I believe it was 1979, the Mets and Cardinals were playing a twi light night double header on the last Saturday night of the season because of a Friday night rain out. In the top of the 19th inning, the Cardinals scored to take a lead in the first game; it was something like after midnight at that point. In the bottom of the ninteenth inning on a potential scoring fly ball that would have tied the score the Mets runner was called out at the plate by umpire Terry Tata despite the fact the whole world could see the catcher had dropped the ball. Tata refused to change the call (of course the fact it was the 19th inning and this would have re-tied the score had nothing to do with it) and made some kind of excuse that in his opinon the catcher had held the ball long enough. Please.
Sometime around 1979, the Mets were playing the Braves on the Sunday before the all star break. There was a play at the plate in the last of the 13th inning when out dear friend Angel Hernandez called the Brave runner safe with the winning run on a play where he was clearly out. Johnny Franco went bonkers and wa eventually suspended but it was clear Hernandez just wanted to get the game over with and start his holiday, at least it looked the way to me and knowing it was Hernandez, I wouldn't put it beyond him.
Now maybe it wasn't deliberate on the umpire's part. Maybe it was just his inner id or whatevewr it was called in Forbidden Planet that caused him not to see an obvious out and I understand this is an officials' board and the tendency is to defend officials and it's okay, we can live with that.
But nobody will ever convince me that putting all the circumstances together, the way it is accepted and taught in umpire school whether I or you or anybody elose likes it or not, that runner last night was out at the plate and with the batter having fallen down half way between home and first, it was a cinch doulbe player and Pittsburgh should have been out of the inning.
As always my apologies if anybody is offended by my opinion.
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Post by cj on Jul 27, 2011 15:49:51 GMT -5
Joe Torre has issued a statement regarding this play. It is available on mlb.com. Basically he said sweep tags are a problem for umpires but it does look like the call was blown last night and that the umpire is truly sorry and we can't take the human element out of the game and instant replay might not be the answer but baseball will monitor it. The usual let's sweep it under the table that we have come to expect from mlb.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2011 19:09:28 GMT -5
Another case for replay.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2011 19:44:42 GMT -5
If Dud Selig had as much guts as some NFL replay guys have had, he would have ordered the game replayed from that point since the 2 teams played today. But Dud does not and this is what happens.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2011 20:01:34 GMT -5
TIM, NO JUDGEMENT CALL IS PROTESTABLE. BUD CANNOT DUE WHAT YOU SUGGESTED IT WOULD BE A VIOLATION OF THE RULES
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Post by FredFan7 on Jul 27, 2011 20:12:29 GMT -5
The only time a completed official game has to be replayed or resumed from some point is if a team claims the umpires mis-applied a rule and the bosses uphold the protest. See the pine tar game.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2011 20:19:52 GMT -5
IF This was the NFL Jerry would never work a Pirate game again
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2011 21:14:05 GMT -5
TIM, NO JUDGEMENT CALL IS PROTESTABLE. BUD CANNOT DUE WHAT YOU SUGGESTED IT WOULD BE A VIOLATION OF THE RULES Please dont use caps. It's not really a judgement call because either he is out or he is safe. Just like the Don Derkinger play.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2011 22:21:55 GMT -5
Tim, safe out , ball or strike, fair or foul calls are judgement calls according to rule 9:02
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2011 23:46:36 GMT -5
The rule stinks. MLB has the worst calls (not saying worst officials) because there is little replay.
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Post by cj on Jul 28, 2011 4:41:48 GMT -5
We should move on and although I have a tendency to do so from time to time, it is worthwhile discussing but it more properly belongs on a baseball umpiring board but this board covers officiating in general too.
I am absolutely not questioning the umpire's integrity in what I am about to say. But sometimes our bodies send messages to our senses and cause us to see or not to see what is in front of us properlhy. Ever heard of a mirage? The umpire had been out there since 1930 crouching up and down, had a couple of arguments with Braves players and the manager on a very very hot evening. Obviously his body was saying get the bloody game over with and sent a message to his brain which caused him to look for a tag more closely than normal. All part of human nature and all understandable as perfect as we might like our officials to be. If this play had occurred in the sixth inning of a 5-1 game, I am sure, although I can't prove it, he would have called out.
Perhaps it's time we recognize that and on a hot night or maybe on any night, once a game goes past the 12th inning say, move the third base umpire behind the plate and move the plate umpire to third base (I choose third base because it's usually the position with the least number of calls but it could also be the 2nd base umpire but he does a lot of runnig to the outfield. It's almost inhumane for somebody to keep crouching up and down for 6.5 hours like the plate umpires do in long extra innings game.
What do yu think about this idea?
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Post by nyasablue on Jul 28, 2011 10:17:32 GMT -5
The rule stinks. MLB has the worst calls (not saying worst officials) because there is little replay. OK - ENOUGH of this!!! Lets get a few things straight here: Unlike the sterile, 'perfect' world of the NFL, baseball is by nature a messier game. Any sport where the best hitters still fail 2/3rds of the time, where a perfectly pitched game is the rarest thing, and where NO one goes through a season without making a few fielding errors, is by definition messy and imperfect - should we expect any less from its officials? To compare the officials of both sports is TRULY like comparing apples and oranges - two TOTALLY different games AND lifestyles: Football officials from the time they start working high school games only have to physically WORK their games once a week. Baseball umps from the start are working 4-5 up to ten games a week! When hs softball season is on, and our leagues start up, I sometimes am working 7 days a week for a full month. Yes, football guys read the rulebook, work out, etc, etc, but still - maybe in hs they are working a couple times a weekon the field. When football officials reach the mid to upper college level, and the NFL, its a pretty good life - you fly into your game site, have a meeting with your crew, go out the next day and work your game, and you get to fly home that night and work your 'real' job. Umpires - from the minute you start in the minors, you are on the road 7 days a week for six months a year, for lousy pay, and then hope you can find a job for the off season - IF you are rehired and or promoted for the next year. Its a touch better in the majors - you get a vacation in the middle of the season, pay is better, but you basically are STILL on the road for 8 months. I could go on and on about this, but to get back to the matter at hand - a guy with 10-15 pounds of gear in him, who probably called over 500 pitches that night in a hot humid ballpark with managers and players SCREAMING at him, for over six hours makes a call he MIGHT have got wrong, and now everybody is calling him a lousy umpire - even though he is the ONLY one who had the proper view of the play. NObody and noTHING had the view he had of that play - no player, no manager, and certainly no camera. He was the only one who had a close three dimensional view of that - and THAT makes a difference! NFL officiating is the world as we wish we could have it -perfect, all mistakes get corrected.and we all go home thinking the world is perfect. Baseball umpiring is the world as it really is - mistakes happen, human beings make mistakes, and guess what - there's another game tomorrow, so live with it!
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